Posted by: scottishboomerang | August 18, 2007

Christian Sado-Masochism: A Biblical View of Marriage or the Sign of a Subculture Gone Mad?

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This article involves a discussion of mature or adult topics, which some people may find distressing. You should not read this if you are under 18 years of age, or if you find the frank discussion of sexual matters (in their sociological context) offensive.

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South Korea, where I am currently living, has, at times, a disturbing reverence for the evangelical church(es) of the United States (and to a lesser extent, Western Civilisation), somewhat reminiscent of the adulation that Catholic nations in previous centuries directed towards Rome. Thus we see here Bible quotes in Korean and the “holy” language of English (which in Europe would have been in Latin), and an almost pathological reverence for American brands of the evangelical Christian fundamentalist tradition. I therefore want to look in some depth at the Evangelical Subculture in the United States and its impact not only in America but on the rest of the world, and I will do this from a Christian perspective (note, here I say “a” Christian perspective, that is, the perspective of one Christian (me) and not “the” Christian perspective. Just to make that clear, before you start building that big bonfire in PoHang Yukori and ready yourselves for some good o’ fashioned heretic “purification”.

The Evangelical Church – is really a Christian Republic: it is socially organised in line with the state religion: thus within it are banks, schools, universities, hospitals, companies, marketing departments, book stores, record labels, retail outlets, and social welfare programmes.  America, which has long seen a separation between Church and State has, though its unique blend of free-wheeling capitalism and emphasis on self-sufficiency created the space for this rather unique state-within-a-state, a world which, I must confess, at times bares as little relation to the real world as that popular Korean role-playing computer games WarCraft, and at other times apes in a somewhat bizarre fashion the world “outwith the fold”.

Once inside the Republic, you rarely have to leave: you can work in an Evangelical company, attend an evangelical university, have your marriage arranged to an evangelical spouse, send your kids to evangelical summer camp and home educate them in evangelical ways, and nearly everything that can be found in the “unbaptised” world can be found, like a Platonic ideal, existing on the Evangelical plane.

Only in America, where the population is sufficiently large, and the communities sufficiently isolated is such a divorce from ordinary society possible. It is one of the ironies of the Evangelical movement is that, committed as they are to spreading the gospel, they do not seek so much as to reach out to the lost as to drag them in to an alternate universe, a universe which even has its own jargon and language (“Bless you brother” can mean anything from “excuse me, I want to get by” to “I don’t like you very much”). The idea (which I’m sure is not a conscious one) is that once “in”, the Christian will never actually have to leave and maintain contact with the “old world”.

Want a book on Christian transcendental mysticism – we’ve got it. UFOs and paranormal – yup we’ve got that too. Rock music? Yup, right over there, next to the Christian Pilates DVDs, but don’t tell the professors over at Bob Jones University because they think even Christian Rock Music is a one-way ticket to the seventh circle of hell.

Pornography?

Well, only as long as its “Christian” porn: that is, violent to the point where it would make the Marquis de Sade blush and exclaim Mon Dieu! Why did I not think of that!” and involve sick forms of manipulation that even the vociferous Marquis would not touch with a barge-pole. I am referring to a phenomenon which could only have emerged as a subculture of a subculture: “Christian Domestic Discipline” (CDD) or “Loving Domestic Discipline” LDD.

Never heard of it? Neither did I, until last night, when I was searching for articles on Christian marriage, and up popped what would appear to be an instruction manual on how best to flog your wife [please note that this link will take you to text of a violent and graphic nature] and, it would also appear, your teenage and unmarried daughters of collage age. As I skimmed down, the first sentence that caught my eye was this one:

The following … position for disciplining wives is adapted from a method used and recommended … to paddle high school and college aged daughters. It is suggested in this forum because, as experienced husbands and fathers are aware, there is not much difference in paddling a rebellious teenager or her difficult mother.

My initial reaction was to assume it was one of these Osama-inspired islamist sites or its a weird and kinky porn site bordering on kiddie porn that some freak put the Google adwords for “Christian marriage” for some kind of offensive, morbid joke. I was about to hall my big beautiful behind out of there when I saw the tag line: Loving Wife Spanking in a Christian Marriage. So, that was why it came up on my marriage searches.

In short, this group of Christians, who belong to a subculture with the Evangelical subculture ( I would hasten to add that I have never heard these opinions being preached in any evangelical church), take the Christian insight that Christian wives should submit to their husbands authority as a biblical mandate to spank or flog your wife on her behind in order to punish and correct negative behaviour, and to elicit a more submissive attitude from her. To support this, supposed evangelical pastors (though their names, training, and dates of ordination are mysteriously absent), over a veritable concordance of Bible verses to support this theological position. Or should we say, justification.

An hour later, I had read the whole website, in all its tragic, harrowing detail, several of the blogs by women in these Sadomasochistic relationships. The fact that they all seemed “happy” was no comfort. They reminded me of those poor “happy” souls in Huxley’s Brave New World. Oh yes, I get punishment, but that’s how God intended marriage to be, and the “pain” which the receive at the hands of the wonderful, godly men who love them enough to take them in hand is “nothing with the pain of divorce”. They even have their own brand of kinky underwear: the kinky crotchless granny-panties…are we looking at a new breed of Stepford Christian?

kinkygranny.jpeg

Sadomasochism (usually involving one partner spanking the other) has never really appealed to – but I know that many couples, many married couples engage in it: they say that its a “harmless kink”. Many couples take turns and, as far as I can gather, the eroticism is in (1) the contrast between pain and the intimacy/gentleness which follows the pain and (2) in the psychological power plays within a safe contest. As CS Lewis in his beautiful chapter on erotic love remarks that very often men and women in the bedroom engaged in rough play, costumes, and charades, and all very well and good, as long as we do not loose our sense of humor. The moment we loose our sense of humor about the whole thing, he goes on , the danger of idolatry creeps in.

I would probably add something to this though. Within the context of marriage, we may don whatever costumes and play whatever charades we like. But we should never mistake the costume of a thing for the thing itself, or the charade as anything real. A fairy story my delight a child at bedtime, a child really lost in a forest is in absolute terror. The wicked stepmother is a pantomime demon – a truly wicked step-parent is another matter, as any abuse survivor will tell you. These Christian couples share the charade – an erotic taste – with many in the secular world, and they write pornography – essentially erotica without a sense of humor – to fuel it and reinforce it.  Though somewhat unorthodox in Christian circles, within the context of a Christian marriage, as long as you do not involve animals or children or mess with fundamental things like Free Will (I’ll come to that later) its really none of my business, nor anyone elses, of what you do or don’t do in the bedroom.

The problem comes with the idea that (1) your erotic taste is explicitly mandated in the Word of God, and therefore every couple should do it or they are not proper Christians (2) the practice of your erotic tastes think that a man should be able to flog his wife without her consent – but those pesky feminists got hold of the law, wink wink, nudge nudge– , and perhaps most importantly (3) that it’s acceptable to extend your erotic taste to your teenage and collage age daughters.

Dealing with their idea that their erotic tastes are mandated as a Biblical marriage, I would go with what CS Lewis would probably say: you are elevating a charade and pretending its real, and that is very dangerous from a spiritual perspective: in this context Eros, (ie erotic love) goes from being a playful imp to a dark and terrorizing god. They say it’s implied in the Scripture. Well, I know something of the character of St Paul ( I doubt if we would have been friends). If he had thought it was a good thing that husbands flog their wives into submission then he would have said it. Not only that, but he would have distinguished, as he did elsewhere over dietary laws, between what was his idea and what was God’s ideas on the matter. Nowhere, but nowhere in scripture does it say that it is acceptable and the duty of a loving husband to administer this kind of violence in his home.

I think the reason why they have grasped at bible verses which point to the husband’s authority as theological justification are more to do with vanity. I have noticed in the Evangelical subculture in the west and in Korea that a “holy gloss” must be presented for everything one does. You can’t just go on a ten day vacation, it has to be a ten-day mission trip. You can’t take weekend break, it has to be a retreat. You can’t go for a drive, you have go for a drive for the purposes of leaving inspirational Christian literature at a roadside cafe. You can’t play games with your wife in the bedroom, you have to find a biblical mandate, and once “found”, it ceases to be a game. Otherwise you would be just like all the other poor sinners out there.

By taking the charade or game to seriously, there then follows a bizarre reasoning. Because, in their strange interpretation, the Bible mandates this for marriage, it therefore must mandate it for all marriages, and mandate it for those women who get know sexual kick at all out of calling their husbands sir will he flogs them with a belt. It has to be consensual, they say, because those pesky pinko lesbian feminists got hold out our bionically-based laws and stopped us from doing this so that “any man who looks cross-eyed at his wife gets sent to jail”. Apart from being petulant nonsense and a clear exaggeration, (cruelty to your wife has always been a reason for criminal prosecution in Christian jurisprudence since medieval times,) I cannot imagine, ever, a conversation like this between a Christian man and women who are dating.

Him: Anna, it think its time that we move our relationship to the next level. Will you marry me?

Her: Oh Tom, I don’t know what to say

Him: Say yes darling, and make me the happiest man on earth.

Her: Yes, yes, of course.

Him: Oh there is one small thing. In order for us to have great Christian marriage, you have to be ok with me flogging you on a regular basis.

Her: E-excuse me?

Him: Its for your own good, God said so.

In reality, it is the women with the submissive “kinks” in their sexualities who bring up the idea of physical discipline in a relationship, and (no wonder) the males are often extremely reluctant to participate. Dominant men who are into SM seek these women out for wives, or women who are easily manipulated (ie less educated than them) But never, ever ever, would you get a conversation like that “straight off the bat”.

The women are happy, I think, because, having made the charade the real thing, the real thing has conditioned them to behave rather like crack addicts. The CDD scene appears to have another element that doesn’t appear in the “charade” or “pantomime” practiced elsewhere. Behavioral modification in adult women. Psychological manipulation. Now, as any interrogator or torturer – or even any cop for that matter – knows, you can get a dog to lick the hand of that beats it, if you know what to do. Sociopath men who are domestic abusers know this by instinct. Its the reason why battered women don’t leave abusive relationships, and the reason why the good-cop, bad-cop routine works so well. It essentially involves interspersing pain with gentleness or affection, or even solitary confinement with human contact. By way of example, lets look at an account (erotica, pornography?) from one of the women writing on the CDD site (the bold emphasis is hers, not mine.

As the intensity [of the flogging] increases I struggle to keep quiet so as to not alert the children ….In this moment I am his! He pauses at times to comfort & caress me with a soft touch that lies to my mind telling it “This can’t be the same hand that just delivered that pain”. But just as quickly as the spanks stopped, they begin again.

Later on, she describes the “contrast” effect which is intended to produce feelings of relief so profound (if she was in a police cell, she’d be signing that confession):

Isn’t it Amazing that I have never felt more loved or cherished then I do in this moment right now ? The pain is mounting & the spanks are swift, I am not sure this will ever end. When he feels I have seen my errors he picks me up & draws me to his chest. I can do nothing but cry. In this moment I am his! …We lay there in that position for awhile. He wraps his arms around me as I bury my head & allow my tears to flow.

Amazing? No, honey, just very sad that the only way to have proper intimacy in your marriage is to have your husband inflict this kind of suffering on you. In her case, at least, I would recommend counseling. Or perhaps the same deprogramming they give to people coming out of cults. I have no doubt, though, that her treatment at the hands of her husband results in behavior modification, and its this that turns what otherwise might be a harmless charade or bedroom game into something creepy.

Consider this from a husband who is “into” Christian SM:

At the same time, as many women who have experienced both will testify, getting the pants-down/off licking of one’s life is not nearly as soul-wrenching, embarrassing, or agonizing as divorce. Because a timely trip across the husband’s knees usually restores broken fellowship and breeds both love and respect in marriage, the long-term results certainly are not nearly as debilitating as divorce for most couples.

Note here the implication that it is the woman’s behavior that needs modifying or disciplining, not the man’s. Furthermore, note also the implication that it is a woman’s fault if the marriage ends in divorce, and how “loving discipline” can be used as a prescription. There is a technical term for this. Utter hogwosh. Marriages fail because of lack of intimacy. North American males, having been raised in a culture where intimacy is discouraged in raising male children are terrible at it. Feminism is not the reason why American marriages are miserable (implied elsewhere). In all parts of the world, when women are economically secure and educated enough not to stay in a horrible marriage, they leave. This is true for America, true for Europe, and its also true for the developed economies in East Asia (Korea has a divorce rate the same as the United States), which is news for all those misogynists who come here looking for “traditional” Asian brides. The divorce rate in the Christian Church, at least here in Korea, is no different from the un-churched population.

Women nag, men spank. Women have shape tongues, and equally sharp minds, which they can use with great effect. Men have upper body strength. For good or for evil, but use what God gave them. The strong-willed wife will try to outlast her husband’s hand on a bare bottom.

This is a departure from traditional Victorian chauvinism (which these guys are so desperately trying to “rekindle” in their marriages, there is more reference to the Victorian era than any other on their site ). Then, men thought they were superior in every way, intellectually AND physically. The man writing here, who admits to spanking his wife daily to “remind” her not to “slip up”, makes no such claim. He seems to think that women are intellectually superior, (smarter) and therefore more dangerous. Men are portrayed as physically superior, but women as intellectually superior, (but morally inferior) and therefore a “danger” to your inner Neanderthal. It seems that the spanking in his marriage (and it doesn’t seem like a game or a kink any more, does it?) then essentially what you are doing is compensating for your lack of communication skills (and possibly sense of inferiority to your wife’s intelligence), with violence. The writer of this article is a man who is deeply threatened by his wife’s mind.

Yet he is honest. The object is control, not leadership (in the theological section the pastor takes pains to point out this kind of thing is not an abuse of power, not about control, but about leadership). Elsewhere though, we see a very different picture:

There are three basic ways to control a wife. One is to ignore her. Another is to burden her with chores, responsibilities, and work. The final way is to, in a no nonsense fashion, discipline her personally, privately, and memorably. The first method ruins the marriage. The second makes her old. In responsible hands, the third can work miracles.

The folly of this is obvious. I’d like to point out, at this stage, that “even the Devil has the power to perform miracles.” There is nothing especially “good” about a miracle in and of itself.

Lastly, and most importantly, is this idea that as well as being biblical-mandated to flog your wife, you can do this with equal justification to your daughters. Well, no, you can’t. Whether you like it or not, with your wife, if you engage in such practices, you are doing it for erotic reasons. You have done it to increase intimacy, or (more likely in many cases) you cannot have intimacy with out it. You have done it because you get a sexual kick out of it. You have written porn and erotica which you have dressed up as “Christian Spanking Romance” (complete with spanking ratings), in order to fuel your lifestyle. You make your wife strip nude while you do this to her. It is never, ever the same as disciplining a child. And when your daughters become young women, they cease to be children.

Many people confuse loving discipline with cruelty. If you administer as smacking the kind of floggings which are apparently administering to your wife as part of a consensual arrangement, then you are engaging in child abuse;  a form of sexual abuse. People who smack their children when they are naughty do so because presumably, one day, they want their kids to grow out of being naughty. The ability of a child to discipline themselves is always the intention. You are training their moral compass. Once the child is capable of making their own moral decisions, (that is, when they transition from childhood to adulthood,) if you still feel the need to smack them then you have done your parenting wrong. If you have done it right, the young adult will have learned self-discipline and self-control. That’s the “whole point” of smacking children. Children are born uncontrollable little savages and its your job as a parent to turn them into socially functioning, happy human beings. Of course, you are trying to modify behavior, but they are children. By definition, unless you ascribe to a lunatic philosophy which believes that children should be allowed to do what they like, a parent’s job, to a certain extent, is to modify the behavior of their kids.

Flogging (they call it paddling, but I like to call a spade a spade) your teenage or collage aged daughters is done for your own satisfaction, not their good. You are reacting in an uncomfortable way to your daughter’s sexuality, and you are sinning. As young adults, they have assumed adult responsibilities, and in many cases, adult rights. I note here you are also only implying it should be done on girls…your male sons have the physical strength, at a much earlier age, to hit you back, and cause real damage. Worse still, you are teaching your daughter that “love” or “intimacy” means a beating. You are distorting the image of fatherhood, and the image of God the Father, by your actions. If I see you do it, I’ll call the cops.

In conclusion, this whole “Christian SM” scene interferes, by a process of psychological manipulation, with Free Will, in adults who are morally responsible for themselves. God views that kind of thing very seriously. I sometimes wonder whether the removal of someone’s free will, through torture, manipulation, or threat, is not the “unforgivable sin” Jesus talked about: free will was so important to God, after all, that He allowed the possibility of disobedience, and we would be fools not to take it as seriously as God does.

This subculture within a subculture is sure sign of the fact that when someone is “born again” what people really mean is “you have joined a club”, or even ” you have joined a State”. And that State is not the kingdom of heaven, but shadowing or aping of the secular world. With all of its inherent sinfulness, pride, perversions, and violence. The dangers should be obvious.

Those things which we make gods, become demons.

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Responses

  1. I am not in a CDD relationship. I think you can be a whole person and be a spanko of sorts. No children or college age girls .. but some adult females like to spanked. Some marriage’s christian and non christian can handle Domestic Discipline. It is a matter of consent, and a good amount of free will. It is erotic to some.. and keeps boundaries in some marriages or relationships. It is not for you. It works for some.. think of I love lucy, John Wayne movies, romance novels, ect… There is a Spencer Plan that pre dates CDD, and is not victorian at all.

    I am not talking hard core beatings.. or floggings.

    People used religion for all sorts of reasons… look at 9/11 for the most extreme.. Live and let live.. some females are content with this… and ask yourself who is really in charge if a wife asked for this sort of thing then gets it.

    If some need to candy coated with God’s blessing well.. that is there choice.

    Freedom to choose = use of free will.

    I too like CS Lewis version of erotic love.. in a marriage….for me it includes spanking.

  2. This is an excellent article Scottish boom. I became a Christian in my late teens, but I’d been sexually aroused by the idea of mfotk, (male with female over the knee spankings) as long as I can remember, well before becoming Christian.
    After years of being sexually unfulfilled I spoke to my wife about it and admitted to her my very real desire concerning spanking her … It is simply the most sensuous, sexually charged thing, period, on the planet to me, nothing compares, nothing.

    Now the other thing is that while involved in this practice of spanking my wife … I am not tempted in the smallest inkling to view any women on the internet, or videos, I am beyond satisfied, I am overjoyed to come home to my wife, only she stirs my soul.

    Although I do agree with you in that, I don’t buy into the CDD justifications or the biblical mandate the CDD culture espouses. I agree Scottish that it’s just a phony biblical justification, whether it is the power or the humiliation or the sexual or whatever, the CDD heralds are casting a smoke screen over their true inner intentions. I agree.

    I’ll just say it flat out, I just love spanking my wife every week or so! … But, we speak plainly to each other, and I’ve made it very clear to her that, it is in fact a game, A game I get a sexual boost out of in enforcing my single rule, but it is still a game, it is not reality, although the spankings are real and they sting, sometimes she cries but usually not. Our relationship is real and goes way beyond this and I’ve told her if she doesn’t want to do this she doesn’t have to, I’ll deal with it.

    But, she knows what I like, and I also do things she likes in addition, whatever she wants. The difference is that I don’t mind at all the things she likes, but she does not enjoy the spankings, nonetheless she does it for me, but she doesn’t have to. Still she does and I love it.
    Of course we are intimate sexually, in fact more often then the spankings. It’s the spankings that give me my mojo to put it bluntly, without it, the sexual urges grow less frequent, they happen, but the passion is definitely weaker…But I will take to heart what you said; the C.S. Lewis quote is very eye opening. I will tell you though, I’ve never spoken to CDD’r, DD’r, BDSM’r, or S&M’r in my situation, with my particular….I don’t know, approach I guess.

    Please comment back! Even email me!

    • Hi there Cully,

      Thanks for your comment. I hope you don’t mind but I edited some of the more intimate details you shared as it concerns both you and the special lady who is your wife.

      I’m very much of the view that provided manipulation and abuse is not present in a relationship, and that you are into a person, and not a fetish, you can do whatever floats your boat and still remain true to your marital values.

      It concerns me a little that your wife doesn’t enjoy what you do much, so I hope you keep open communication in your marriage to ensure that her emotional needs are being met. I know some guys wouldn’t want to do this stuff unless their ladies were as into it as they were – and therein lies a bit of a warning. For love and acceptance, many women will endure things that inside they consider intolerable for the sake of pleasing the one they love, and I’m wondering how long you can do this without resentment and feelings of violation on her part building up.

      What do you think?

  3. For me Christianity is based on sadomasochism, it was Christianity that lead the subjugation and domination of peoples worldwide. So for me to be a “Christian” and only focus on the “good stuff” that Jesus said and done without looking at the whole of the story and the atrocities “god” has inflicted and disseminated is just beyond me. Christianity through and through is a system of control and domination, so it isn’t far fetched that some kookies will use the bible to justify their perversions, this is what Christians have done since the beginning. I mean why in the hell would god leave the space for such things to happen, if only 100000 people are “true” or good Christians? Doesn’t make any sense. You are just as bad as the perverted ones to believe that a book is the word of God, he word of God has always been the cosmos, and the patterns in nature, but Christianity debunks that as witchcraft, and then burn those witches, then go home beating their dicks with witch ash, then go to Church the next morning to ask for forgiveness.

    http://www.badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gfj_sadomasochism.htm

    • Hi there, I’ve added your comment because you are entitled to your opinion, asuming of course it is based on reason, not hatred. Theists do not have a monopoly on bigotry or lack of reason after all. I’ll answer your comments on my other blog Belief and Reason:

      http://www.beliefandreason.wordpress.com

  4. I think it is a very good article. I can’t agree with the last comment. It is christianity that has released and elevated womanhood.

    I always had trouble with CDD. It never seemed right. Yes I do play in the bedroom. My instinctive rule has always been “No Punishment”. I think if one keeps off that it is okay. It’s nothing to do with behavioural change to anyone.

    Thank you for writing such a well thought out article.

  5. What is the book title in which C.S. Lewis comments on erotic love?

    His views do interest me and are unusually outspoken by a christian by the sound of it.

    I am always in a quandary of whether to keep it all private or whether these things can be discussed. Discussion has proved mostly unfruitful as one is labelled something which they are not so the better path may to keep it private.

    I don’t really need the approval of others if my wife is comfortable with it which she is so maybe it is better to have the courage of your covictions with your wife only and not enter fruitless discussions about it.

    • Hi there:

      As with Cully, I have removed some stuff from your post which I think is a personal rather than general matter and I don’t feel right about publishing it – my only advice is to talk to your wife, your priest or God if you are worried about something; and if you are not, and your wife is not, or you conscience is bothered, maybe it’s time for a re-think. I am possibly the worst person on the earth to give anyone advice about marriage. I would be inclined to think specifics about your personal life are best kept private in a forum like this, since we do not know who might be reading.

      The book is “The Four Loves” by CS Lewis. The most famous chapter is the chapter on Eros, but my favorite is the one on Charity (Agape).

  6. Excellent observation of reality.

    As Jesus claimed to have god within himself and did not have any of these symptoms, can we safely assume all those who claim a God outside themselves do?

    This would present an entirely rational case that submission caused mental illness and sexual deviency.

    • Can you clarify? If you are talking biblically the main thing scripture says is that sex should be confined within marriage and just between the husband and wife. I cannot see any basis for submission causing mental illness and sexual deviancy. What two people do inside the bedroom is not really commented on in scripture. It is just my personal view that punishment within a marriage is not healthy. If this covers submission then you are right but there are other healthy ways to submit to the others desires without being dominated.

      • Hi Blonderlay,

        […]

        Those that submitted to scriptures as The Word of God. They had given up their brain to any rational thought, seeing Jinns and demons everywhere, and need someone in Authority to tell them what they can and cannot do.

        They are not free.

        And if they then claim to be Christians, they are liars.

        Rather than friends they are proud of their slavery. In slavery they have no guilt or conscience, for that takes ownership.

        Those who do not know what they do.

      • To Blonderay:

        I think you are right as far as this goes. But we should also remember that when it comes to the bedroom the Bible is not very specific it IS specific about how we should treat each other and what emotions should be present in a relationship. The Bible says rather a lot about justice, about manipulation, about preventing or alterning the Free Will of others, about the abuse of power and about mercy and compassion. I do not believe that an entirely “sola scriptura” approach is the wisest anyway, the abundant folly of the way scripture is misused to justify CDD lifestyles seems evidence enough of the drawbacks of this doctrine. Submission in this context is different from submission to God. See my comment to perfect child below.

  7. To Perfect Child

    Thank you for your contributions to this debate.

    A gentle reminder, before things get out of hand, Perfect, I’ve edited your comment because you and Blondray are both my honored guests, and part of my duty as a Host is making sure my honored guests don’t stab each other (or me). Hence I have removed your daggers in the hallway 😉

    I think in your first post you are saying:

    1, Jesus has God within, and did not submit, and therefore
    2. You need to have God within to avoid submission,
    3. those who believe in an external God are necessarily submitting
    4. This submission leads to mental illness and twisted sexuality.

    And in your second post you are saying:

    5. That submitting to “the scriptures” means giving up rationality and relying on someone else to tell them what to do and think, and are slaves
    6. Slaves have no guild or conscience, because someone else mind takes over.

    That’s quite a complex set of arguments you’ve put forward!

    Firstly, I am not at all sure that Jesus had “God within”, a term often used to describe prophets and mystic of various sorts. The traditional orthodox teaching of Christianity based on what Christ said about himself – shared by both catholic and protestant traditions is that Jesus was the Son ‘f God, the God-Man, and the 2nd person of the Trinity. Lest this discussion be diverted down entirely different lines, it is important to understand that the starting point is of course that Jesus was both fully Divine and fully Human. He was “God with us” rather than “God Within”. I think the distinction is a subtle but important one.

    Submission in this case does not mean the carnal submission of a sexual Submissive to her Dominant – this is a different thing and I think Blondray is quite right to say that the bible does not mention what acts are appropriate in the bedroom between a husband and wife, and I’ll deal with this seperately. It is a mistake (and indeed, the very mistake made by the Christians who adhere to CDD-as-God”s-will-for-marriage) to mistake “submission” of this sort as the same thing as submission to God. The Christian submits (or is meant to) to the Will of God (that is, Thy Will Be Done), and we are meant to do this mostly because Christ submitted to the will of God in going to the Cross.

    “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.” Matthew 26:39

    Matthew 26:42 “My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away except I drink it, then let your will be done.

    So it’s not true that Jesus avoided submission!

    And of course, if you are a Christian you try to submit to the Will of God. Possibly the difficulty is discerning what the will of God actually is, but that’s a different discussion; suffice it to say our difficulties with knowing the Will of God have everything to do with our Fallen nature and nothing to do with the Perfection of God.

    Submission to the Divine means effectively Choosing to put your hand in His and trusting in God the way a healthy child trusts a loving parent. If you want a good image of this, I remember standing on the mid-landing of a country house as a very little girl, and my father standing at the foot of the stairs smiling saying “jump”. And I did, even though the stairs were steep and many, I flew into the air with perfect confidence my father’s arms were there to catch me. It was easy for me to obey (submit to) the command to jump because I had perfect confidence and trust in my father, and I will never forget the feeling of flying through the air. I am terrified of heights as well, but the thing I remember – aside from the elation of flying and landing, laughing, in Dad’s arms was the complete absence of fear. When the Bible talks of submission to the will of God; that is the image I have in my mind. I cannot think of anything in a relationship like that, based on love, perfect confidence and trust which would lead to mental illness. Can you?

    You then move on to say, if I understand you correctly, that blind submission to scriptures robs humans of their reason, turns them into moronic conscienceless slaves. I find this an interesting argument given that Christians are commanded to love God with all their minds, as well as the hearts and souls, and that, to me, means applying one’s God-given intellectual faculties. I have, though, often noticed that the bit about loving God with all your mind is sometimes forgotten (along with loving your neighbor)! The second thing is that the “whole point” of having Free Will is that there can be no relationship, friendship, or love without it. A woman chained to your bed can never really be your lover, in the same way that a house you are not free to leave can ever really be a home. It is the Choosing which makes something what it is. Will, reason and, indeed, our conscience were given to us to enable us to choose. Christians are not called to submit to scriptures (by which, of course, is meant a fallible human being’s interpretation of scripture). Christians are called to submit to God.

    That is, to take the leap that Love requires.

  8. Sound words indeed but maybe a diversion of what was the subject of this thread but understandable in the circumstances. Faith can only work through love anyway and if it is not faith it isn’t really worth anything, in christian terms anyway.

    It’s not really, if you think about it: a misunderstanding of what “Submission” means in marriage (at least how it is understood theologically) stems from a failure to understand what it means to submit to God, and from a misinterpretation of Scripture. It is this warped understanding which licenses what is a lifestyle choice which is not healthy.

    I can’t remember what it was that was deleted from my posts. I was trying to be pure but sometimes explicitness is needed so that the point is understood.

    Nothing too graphic! Just personal … I agree with clarity, but your words involved more than one person, and I can’t control who reads this, so best to err on side of caution.

    With regard to the comments I agree that anything forced is wrong. My wife has said she is comfortable with what we do, however shocking it would be to others, so being discreet about what one does is perhaps the better path.

    I get your point. Personally on that level I feel like following the old professor in the Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe “we might all try minding our own businesses!” You would never be daft enough to think that EVERYONE should do it, right? That’s the difference. If you as a couple choose to do something which would shock someone else but is not immoral or illegal or harmful to you or your wife and not centered on a distorted theology (as CDD is) what business is it of mine, or anyone else, to judge you. . Not my job, certainly – thank God! 😀

    Thanks so much for your contributions!

  9. Thank you scottishboomerang

    This is very odd. The only matter is if it were shocking to God, and by implication – it would be! Because one can explain sex to a child; and if one cannot explain what one was up to, to them it means one is describing that perversion of making it appear more than it is, of the exchange of spirits which we can observe leads to cross-dressing and sex-change. To getting into one’s spouse. As opposed to getting out of the world.

    “it is important to understand that the starting point is of course that Jesus was both fully Divine and fully Human.

    With all the knowledge of many of the world’s religions, some still believe the sandpit in the Middle East brought forth God’s Glory from a point of knocking away the True Religion of Judaism rather than extending it like every other prophet before, and declaring new wine cannot go into old wineskins. What a strange way to carry on by snatching it away from the promised seed of Abraham and then declaring themselves the new Israel.

    ….

    • Hi there – I’m not sure I understand the thread of your argument, this seems to be “all over the place” and a bit “random” – I’m sorry. I’ve had to truncate your post not because I am censoring you, but because you are not making enough sense for me to ascertain what it is that you are objecting to. Consequently your post is really off-topic (indeed, is it on ANY topic at all, or about 15 different topics?). Maybe the best thing to do is to focus one thing for your post which is in the vein of what we were discussing, rater than “jumping around”, and I’ll try to answer. I’m sure you have a lot to bring to this discussion, but it would be really helpful if your posts were more focused.

  10. Very good advice to me. You are touching on something that is for sure.

    By the way thank you for that book title by C.S.Lewis. I will certainly try to get hold of it.

    I think you might even be able to crack this submission thing if you carry on. I am sure it doesn’t mean that the husband dominates much less that she should submit to any punishment. The trouble is that a lot of wives want this which is really strange. I suspect personally that there is probably a problem in childhood somewhere. A few have even confessed that to me. I won’t go into it unless it is relevant.

    I am not against the act in itself. Within marriage of course. It depends what is happening in the head at the time. There is a certain nerve there which is connected to the ? so it is logical even if only a minority are stimulated in that way.

  11. ps I’ll leave the theological bit for now as I’ve just swam my heart out and can feel a kind of woosie ectasy creeping on. I cannot fault anything you have said though.

  12. […] Comment! ‘Thank you scottishboomerang […]

  13. Just to clarify my previous posts were addressed to SB not PC whom I confess I cannot make sense of. I don’t know what argument you bring PC so I don’t know what to answer but I do sense that somehow it is against me and has a bias which is not reasoned out for others to understand.

    I do take offence with your insinuations of crossdressing and sex change as I am as offended by such things as much as you are. I have to conclude that you are very biased and choose to read things into something which are not there. This is a killer of reasoned discussion which is a pity as I was very interested in the points that SB was bringing.

    • I think Perfect Child is a “radial” rather than “lateral” thinker and needs more practice writing in a straight line. But I’ve had to truncate her post not because I disagreed but because I don’t understand what she’s trying to say, and most of it is not on topic and very disconnected. She’s put her full post on her blog at http://achildcansee.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/conversation-with-christian-lovers/, where SB readers can contribute to her thoughts.

      • I looked at the posts and it seems like a big slanging match between a man and some women about certain sexual practices. Didn’t think I could comment as it was never going to be resolved..

    • Hi Blonderay,

      My brother is a cross dresser.

      I only found out when he tried to matter-of-factly talk to me and my other sibling about it.

      He was incredulousness that we were total unbelievers and not practioners. Yet, I had a little more insight on how it all started.

      You see, as children I hated my father for being the bully, but he hated his mother for being the enabler.

      He grew up therefore acting out his father’s bravado and chauvinism. And all chauvinists have to keep an eye on women, putting them down, lest they get ahead of themselves and become successful.

      He married a woman he could dominate. After some children she took on a part-time sales job and began to become the higher wage earner. He told me one time that when having sex he spiced it up by him to thinking her as the man and he the female.

      A few years later she ran off with the kids to another man. His additional distractions of drinking, gambling and violence getting worse.

      He has now an alter ego “Rachael” (*Name changed to protect the woman’s identity).

      “I do take offence with your insinuations of crossdressing and sex change as I am as offended by such things as much as you are.

      Resentment starts as a child as a small seed, and by not facing it, justification and hate grows. Then there is fascination. Then there is transformation. Then it is complete. Saul became St Paul.

      I have lived long enough to see that resentment affect people into claiming all sorts of ‘authority’ for what they do.

      GG: “[T]he word of God has always been the cosmos, and the patterns in nature,”

      He’s got it.

      “but Christianity debunks that as witchcraft, and then burn those witches, then go home beating their dicks with witch ash, then go to Church the next morning to ask for forgiveness.”

      Others indulge in sex, gamble or get drunk to avoid the truth about themselves.

      What you get into you have to get out of… or it will kill you.

      • PerfectChild, you begin by quoting Blonderay, and then move on to quotes from someone else without identifying them, and it looks as though you are attributing these quotes to Blonderay. Please bare in mind we have no idea whom you are quoting and it makes your writing look a little confused!

        It seems to me that you’re account of growing up in a family with a highly distorted viiew of parenthood, (and from your account it looks to be highly abusive) echos the point I made about how men and women in CDD relationships can damage their children. In essence the man here is addicted to power, the woman is the co-dependent, keeping the addict comfortable and secure, and the children must “never talk about Mum and Dad’s problem”. In essence, your father seems like the head of his own mini-cult with all the cult-members revolving around him until one or all of you escaped, but not unscathed. If your father was also a religious man, or used religion to justify his behavior, then I can understand – and empathize with your ire directed at mainstream Christianity.

        For you, the Church has sanctioned and encouraged abominable behavior and the male abuse of power, which has deeply damaged your brother and yourself. I’m not going to argue with that: far too often the Church has ignored the cries of “widows and orphans” – and yes, married women too, the cries of the oppressed, because the oppressors sat in suits in the front row, carried the biggest bibles, prayed the longest payers, and put their thirty pieces of silver in the collection plate on Sunday!

        When I think of Father God, I think of a positive image because my human father provided me with one – the father whose arms I could jump into laughing. I was very, very fortunate. What if my father had been one to let me crash to the ground for a laugh? For you – your image of a “God-as-parent” must be completely destroyed by your experiences with your own father. I do not know whether its still in print, but I recommend “The Father Heart of God” by Josh McDowall. I am not from the same Christian tradition as McDowall, but the book struck a chord with me because he explores the male abuse of power in families and how this can wreck your view of God.

      • SB gives good advice as usual. I have heard that this switch of sex identity happens as a small child. Most small boys will come to the realisation, after being part of mummy, that they are not like mummy but like daddy. However if the father is someone they cannot identify with for example for the reasons given above they will keep the female indentity and will not want to sexually identify with daddy. This all happens unconsciously of course. It shows that bad behaviour affect others especially our children.

        HB you have had an idyllic upbringing it seems and are free of the negative influence that now abounds in the home. I cannot say the same for myself but know that He who has started a good work in me will continue it until the day of Jesus Christ.

        PC you hit out at men either because of your father or because of some later experience. You have some truth but I would say it is mixed up in a lot of error which comes from your wounded soul rather than sound judgments.

  14. That makes perfect sense to me SB.

    I have just got round to reading your initial write up in full and thought it was an interesting thing to discuss. You seem very perceptive on a lot of things and I would like to comment if possible.

  15. scottishboomerang, I am a gentleman.

    I forgave my father and became my father’s father. I took my mantle off Elijah which he declined to take.

    Thus I do not need to feel masculine as proposed by these males using CDD or sexual therapy to keep a marriage together. My wife marries me not me marry my wife. “And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. She shades under a tree, he does not bury his face in her roots.

  16. When I wrote

    GG: “[T]he word of God has always been the cosmos, and the patterns in nature,”

    I meant I was quoting GG who was the fourth to feedback in this thread.

    • Are you against sex in marriage PC?

  17. “Are you against sex in marriage PC?”

    No finer a question than this from anyone who cannot do normal anymore.

    A human body that has all the natural cycles it needs, now replaced by mental ones. Salivating Pavlov’s dogs to the merest suggestion, we have entetered the realm of homosexuals, and by following the letter of the law, been told it is good.

  18. You’ve lost me I’m afraid.

  19. Now where were we. Wives be subject to your husbands. The man is the head of the wife and Christ is head of the husband. Nothing about punishing or dominating the wife there any more than the Father punishes or dominates the Son. Christ being subject to the Father brought perfect relationship. Can a wife be subject to a husband who is not subject to Christ?

    That they use these kinds of scriptures to justify their DD marriages is a travesty in interpretation of the subject scriptures which are addressed to the wife not the husband.

    As has been pointed out it is often the wives who want to initiate this lifestyle. Who can understand what they are thinking of or why they want to be dominated in this way? I have heard it said that it releases their guilt. My understanding is that it is Christ who takes our guilt when we have truly repented or even if we are just trying to walk in the light.

    The other reason quoted is that it helps her to be a good wife being disciplined for her faults. Are the other 98% of wives missing something? I doubt it. We all need to battle with our own faults before God without someone standing over us with a birch. Maybe when we were children perhaps. Not adults.

    I still think there is a childhood problem there somewhere, especially low esteem problems where you hear in your head that you are no good and deserve to be punished. Is this at the root of it?

    Okay so they just like to be spanked as it switches them on during sex. Fair enough but why the punishment? As SB or CS Lewis says when the fun goes it can be an idolatry of the thing itself. This punishment thing is the dark side in my opinion and we don’t only see it in CDD marriages. It is quite rampant out there and there is something not quite right about it in my opinion. I know there are those who use pretend punishment so they have got a reason to do it but do they need to have that? I think not. Why not be straight about it?

    I do put a seperation between DD and those who do it just for erotic purposes, which I do not have a problem with personally. There are good medical reasons why it is stimulating for some.


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